巴比特论坛

发表于 2016-12-5 10:25:10 | 显示全部楼层
活动类型:
AMA
开始时间:
2016-12-11 14:00 至 2016-12-12 17:00 商定
活动地点:
第27期
性别:
不限
已报名人数:
1

本期嘉宾:


lau.jpg

Johnson Lau:Bitcoin Core贡献开发者,香港中文大学学者


matt.png

Matt Corralo:Bitcoin Core贡献开发者,Blockstream核心开发者


Corallo和Lau致力于在特币协议扩展性、安全和网络可用性方面的开发。他们在不同类型比特币应用的软件开发方面有着丰富经验和杰出贡献。

活动时间:

12月11日下午3:30,由Shanghai Blockchain Meetup组织的“比特币区块链的开发者们 Bitcoin Core上海座谈会”中的Q&A环节,巴比特将带着大家的问题,现场向Lau和Corralo进行提问,并于活动结束后,在本帖中进行回复。欢迎踊跃提问!我们将选取8-10个问题,你的问题将会被现场讨论及优先回答。

现场活动链接:http://8btc.com/thread-42946-1-1.html,活动免费,欢迎报名参加!
活动现场还将进行视频直播,敬请关注。

暂未通过 (1 人)

  留言 申请时间
YFFE 2016-12-5 10:36
巴比特资讯记者。寻求报道请联系meng@8btc.com。
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YFFE 2016-12-5 10:46:16 来自手机版
core在中国被抹黑了,中国这些抹黑者其实就是一些做空者,比如嘴炮将军吴忌寒先生,此人嘴炮天下第一!敢说不敢做!婆婆妈妈的,像个女人!
core 唯一被这些做空者抓住尾巴的就是香港共识,就是bs公司的老板Adam back,那二货私自代表core签署了香港共识,这样就被中国这些嘴炮将军抓住了他的尾巴
吴忌寒就拿这个大做文章

现在的解决办法有两个,第一是叫那个二货Adam back道歉说他无法代表core 第二就是core发布申明说跟bs公司没有关系
如果有做到这样,吴嘴炮如果继续捣乱,我们也有人专门对付他们这样婆婆妈妈无病呻吟的女人们、
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2016-12-6 00:31:38 江卓尔: 是的,蚂蚁矿机吴忌寒持有大量矿机,大量币,矿机销售利润和币价息息相关,
然后吴忌寒是做空者,天天想着做空,
你牛
2016-12-5 12:18:28 后排低沉的声音: 我查了一圈,吴的背景,好歹也是 心理学学位  ,一秒钟几十万上下,应该不会这么孩子气。  估计他现在这样天天这样呐喊,背后应该有更深层次的原因。

说来也怪,在中国大众眼里比特币就是非法。。 但是偏偏全球的8成算力都在中国,交易也是。。这背后有很大的一盘棋的。 建议有空看看  这篇文章 过过脑大家。。比特币_一种新型货币对金融体系的挑战_洪蜀宁
http://wenku.baidu.com/link?url= ... MU7LQ1I3ovUxSW-j9fm
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YFFE 2016-12-5 10:47:33 来自手机版
吴嘴炮江左耳心里是不敢分叉,可是天天喊,烦死了
少年维特 2016-12-5 11:14:05
Johnson Lau,就是jl2012吧?http://www.8btc.com/author/13803
gowithbtc 2016-12-5 11:27:18
抓到一个臭不要脸的Johnson Lau就是jl2012,也就是香港共识的签署者,呼叫江老板炮火攻击!
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2016-12-11 20:34:04 gowithbtc回复江卓尔 : 好人做坏事更可怕
2016-12-6 01:03:11 江卓尔: 我不反对任何一个Core开发者,我尊重他们对BTC的贡献,我反对的是Core整体,见9楼

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gowithbtc 2016-12-5 11:28:05
我想知道Johnson Lau和Matt Corralo此次去上海的旅费住宿吃喝玩乐是谁付钱的?
BW.COM 2016-12-5 13:59:02
贡献开发者啊。。。Have fun.
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2016-12-5 19:14:41 gowithbtc回复杀死卡尔 : 因为CORE那群开发人员嘴炮伤害了我长期持币人的利益,就这么简单
2016-12-5 18:57:50 杀死卡尔回复gowithbtc : 就你这个BU的马仔最积极。


补充内容 (2016-12-5 18:59):
不是我眼尖,你们BU能不能多找点儿水军,翻来覆去就这几个号。
2016-12-5 15:05:12 gowithbtc: 經過上次btcc的AMA,這次連問題都懶得提了?
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jb9802 2016-12-5 18:49:09
如果隔离见证被激活,且用户都升及到新的隔离见证客户端,如果这个时候矿工切换回隔离见证前的程序进行挖矿,并发动51%的攻击,那么矿工是否可以偷走隔离见证用户的币。


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2016-12-15 11:30:24 Johnson_Lau: I agree with all what Matt's say. This is the way I put it: a) In any softforks (not just segwit), it is very important for non-mining nodes to upgrade. After the softfork is activated, any miners trying to reverse it are just mining invalid blocks; b) A basic assumption of bitcoin security is at least 51% of miners are not malicious. Segwit requires 95% of miners to support. Any attempts to reverse it after activation is no different from other types of 51% attack; c) the P2SH softfork in 2012 was very similar to segwit in terms of adding rules to some anyone-can-spend scripts. It did really well in the past 4 years; d) we have much more experience in doing soft-forks than hard-forks, and that has been proven to be safe for introducing new features to bitcoin.

我同意Matt的意见。我的分析方式如下:
1)在任何软分叉(不仅仅是隔离见证),非挖矿节点的升级都非常重要。一旦软分叉激活
任何矿工想返回原程序挖矿只是在挖无效区块罢了。2)基本假定比特币安全,是基于至少51%的矿工不是恶意的。而隔离见证是要求95%的矿工支持。任何想在激发后返回尝试,与其他类别的51%攻击没有什么两样。3)在脚本中增加规则方面,2012年所实施的P2SH软分叉与隔离见证非常相似,  它在过去4年里运行良好。 4) 相对于硬分叉,我们有更多的软分叉经验,而且这在比特币引进新功能特色方面,已证明是安全的。
2016-12-14 16:01:49 Matt_Corralo: Forks in Bitcoin are not forks unless users (and, hence, nodes) have upgraded. Before SegWit was released, we contacted nearly every western Bitcoin company, and while some didn't respond, not a single group responded indicating they would not run SegWit. Further, while nodes often misrepresent what real users are running, the fact that so many nodes have upgraded to 0.13.1 is a good sign that at least some users have upgraded. Given this, no, any such blocks after SegWit activates will be invalid, and treated no differenlty from any other blocks which do not meet the consensus rules of the nodes users are running - ie they will be completely ignored and only the valid chain will be used.

如果用户(也就是节点)不进行升级,比特币分叉就谈不上分叉。曾在隔离见证发布之前,我们几乎联系了每一个西方的比特币公司,虽然有些没有回应, 但是没有一个团队反馈他们不运行隔离见证。进一步来讲,节点往往不能代表到底用户在运行什么,事实上,已经有这么多节点升级到0.13.1,也是一个好迹象,至少一些用户已经进行了升级。有鉴于此,隔离见证用户的币,不会被发动50%攻击盗走,在隔离见证激发以后,之前程序的区块会失效,与那些没有达到运行节点共识规则要求的区块没什么两样,也就是说,他们将被完全忽略,只有有效的链才能用。
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baowj 2016-12-6 00:12:02
sw激活将会导致币圈分裂成两个币,见https://www.reddit.com/r/btcfork/,分裂将始于sw正式激活点,请问,core有没有对此的预防措施?再次强调, 请不要说这只是少数人的意愿并且不可能发生,请说出预防的具体措施!!!
另外,core一直威胁的硬分叉而导致的分裂,您所说的预防措施是否也可以预防这种分裂?
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2016-12-15 11:28:47 Johnson_Lau: I assume question 2 is just question 1. Although you asked me not to say "it's impossible" but that's really impossible. Since segwit requires 95% of miners to support, any minority hashing power (5%) failing to upgrade will get their blocks orphaned (if they are mining invalid segwit blocks). Such forks will repeatedly got orphaned and will be totally unusable. If some users do insist to use a version without segwit, they have to explicitly blacklist one of the segwit blocks, and decide to follow the chain with only 5% hashing power. If they are doing this, they are just creating their own alt-coin and anyone could create an alt-coin any time.

我认为这个问题跟上个问题一样。尽管您已经跟我说不要说“不可能”,但是确实不可能。因为隔离见证要求95%的矿工支持,任何不能成功升级的少数的哈希力(5%)区块将被遗弃(如果他们正在挖无效的隔离见证区块)。这些分叉会重复地被遗弃,并将完全作废。如果一些用户确实坚持应用未隔离见证的版本,他们将不得不明确地将其中一个隔离见证区块列入黑名单,并决定遵循只有5%哈希力的链。如果他们正在这样做,他们只是正在创建自己的山寨币罢了,任何人都可以在任何时间创建一个山寨币。
2016-12-14 16:02:15 Matt_Corralo: As I mentioned in my previous answer, this seems highly unlikely. While there are certainly people who disagree with SegWit for political reasons, there is almost no one who would refuse to use a Bitcoin where SegWit was active. That said, I think avoiding community division is critical to Bitcoin's success. Hard forks inherintly have massive risk of community splits, and this is why work like Johnson's focuses on better hard forkr technology to avoid such splits.

如我之前的回答所提到的,这似乎不太可能。虽然肯定有一些人出于政治原因不同意隔离见证,但是几乎没有人会拒绝使用隔离见证激活的比特币。即便如此,我认为避免社区分裂对比特币的成功至关重要。硬分叉具有导致巨大社区分裂风险的天然属性,这就是为什么Johnson的工作重点一直关注完善提高硬分叉技术,以便避免发生这些分裂。
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江卓尔 2016-12-6 01:01:39
本帖最后由 江卓尔 于 2016-12-6 01:08 编辑

【三段论推理
大前提:Core要求内部达成高度一致共识后,才能做出行动。

小前提:Core存在坚决反对大区块扩容+支持小区块的核心成员,不可能在大区块扩容上形成“高度一致共识”。

结论:虽然Core有部分成员支持大区块扩容,但Core作为一个整体,永远无法做出大区块扩容的决定——除非Core已经面临着被选下台的风险。

请问你们对这个问题怎么看。


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2016-12-14 23:00:03 gowithbtc回复江卓尔 : 其实Matt说什么都不代表CORE。

不要忘记香港共识可是有CORE开发人员Luker,Johnson Lau,Peter Todd都签了协议,之后CORE不是说(是Gmax说的)这些人不能代表CORE。你现在问Matt,他的回答有个卵用。随时都会被说他的意见不代表CORE

这样无耻无下限的耍无赖方法真心玩的溜
2016-12-14 22:37:01 江卓尔回复Matt_Corralo : 答非所问,问Core实际无法做出大区块扩容版本,
Matt回避,回答“Core对任何分叉不做决定”
2016-12-14 16:03:03 Matt_Corralo: a. I'm not aware of any real possible bugs reported on reddit. Segwit has been tested on 5 test networks and multiple simulation frameworks. SegWit has been in development for more than a year and had testing and review from a number of Bitcoin Core contributors who have been building the Bitcoin protocol since 2011 or earlier. SegWit has also been re-implememented by two other projects (btcd and BCoin).
我还没发现Reddit上所提的任何可能真实发生的bugs。隔离见证曾历经5个测试网络和多种模拟架构的测试。而且历经一年多的发展,曾从2011年甚至更早致力于比特币协议创建的大量的比特币核心开发人员们,也对其进行了测试和审阅。而在另外两个其他项目(btcd和BCoin)中,隔离见证也再次被实施。
It is never possible to ensure software is entirely bug-free, but the level of testing of SegWit is incredibly impressive, and of course developers have plans or have already worked to address any possible bug that may be discovered later.
谁也不可能保证软件完全没有Bug,但是对隔离见证进行测试力度也是非常惊人的。当然,对于后续可能发现的任何可能的bug, 开发者已经制定了计划并已经着手应对措施。

b. Core does not get to decide on any forks. The community decides what software they use to enforce consensus rules. Several Core contributors continue to work on safe hard forks which prevent splitting of the community (see recent proposals by Johnson Lau and Luke-Jr)
Core对任何分叉不做决定。是由社区来来决定应用什么软件程序执行共识规则。Core的一些开发者还在继续研究安全的硬分叉方案,以便避免社区分裂(见Johnson Lau 和Luke-Jr的最近的提案)

c. Bitcoin development is highly decentralized. At least 4 companies fund full-time Bitcoin Core contributors. There are also many, many contributors who are not full-time who work for many different companies.
比特币的发展是高度去中心化的。至少有4个公司在为全职Bitcoin Core开发者提供资金支持。而且还有很多,很多来自很多不同公司的兼职开发者也在一直在付出努力。
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hellobitcoin 2016-12-8 10:50:29
经历了上周的AMA,都丧失提问的兴趣了。但是很多问题等于没有回答,那我重新问一遍吧,希望这次是真的anything。

对于近期reddit社区中讨论的SW方案存在的可能bug有什么处理方案?

你们考虑过硬分叉吗?在什么情况下会实行硬分叉?

你们认为比特币在开发上现在是去中心化吗?

对于BU你们怎么评价?

你们对中国很多比特币相关企业,比如比特大陆,BW,ViaBTC等,以及社区内意见领袖比如江卓尔、吴忌寒、昌用、闪电等都支持BU怎么看?
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2016-12-15 11:32:36 Johnson_Lau: saying something "might have bugs" is basically a tautology. If that is about question 1 and 2 then I have responded. If this is about some totally unknown bug then there is no way to answer specifically. The first version of segwit was created in mid-2015, and the current version of segwit has mostly not been changed since March 2016. We created 4 special testnets for segwit, and it has been running on the normal testnet for about 6 months already. It is also reviewed by other developers who were independent from bitcoin core. We didn't find any bugs that'd cause users losing money

Johnson: 说什么”可能有bugs”基本是无谓的重复。如果这是关于一些完全未知bug,那么就没有办法具体答复。隔离见证的第一个版本是在2015年中创立,当前的版本几乎是直到2016年3月才被更改。我们为隔离见证建立了4个特别的测试网络,隔离见证已经在正常的测试网络上运行了大概6个月了,而且也经过了其他独立于Core的开发者们的核查。我们并没有找到任何会导致用户丢钱的bug。
2016-12-14 16:04:55 Matt_Corralo: (since they're partially the same question). Remember that lightning can be implemented without SegWit (and that while 4 or 5 companies are currently working on lightning implementations, it is entirely separate from Bitcoin Core). SegWit is only an easier way to do it and carries lots of features to bring new uses to Bitcoin, including a doubling of the block size. As for what happens next, that is up to the community. SegWit was a set of features, including a block size increase, which the community asked for, not something invented only by Core contributors. The community clearly needs better communication between the west and the east. It is up to the western companies and users who almost all support SegWit to communicate better with the eastern community and decide what Bitcoin should do.

(因为hellobitcoin的问题和鼻涕彼的问题基本是同样的,所以一起回答 )。别忘了,闪电网络的实施不需要隔离见证 (现在,有四五家公司正致力于闪电网络的实施工作,这是完全独立于Bitcoin Core的) 。隔离见证只是一种更简单的方法,并且具有很多特色,可以为比特币带来新用途,包括实现区块大小翻倍。至于接下来会发生什么,这就取决于社区了。隔离见证具有一系列的功能特征,包括增加区块大小,这是响应社区的要求,不是单凭Core开发者们发明创造的。显然,社区需要东西方之间有更好的沟通交流。这取决于西方公司和几乎全部支持隔离见证的用户们怎样与东方社区进行更好的沟通,来决定比特币的怎样发展。
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鼻涕彼 2016-12-8 13:33:43
core现在失去了中国矿工的支持(BTCC除外),请问你们有什么想法吗? 还是坚持要搞SW+LN? 哪怕,一直不激活?  
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2016-12-15 11:35:21 Johnson_Lau: I'm just speaking for myself. Miners are mining for profit (and they should be). We learnt that from ETH/ETC. They will try to optimize their short and long-term profit. My worry is there seems to be a disconnection between the Western and Chinese community, in terms of the views towards different proposals. // If segwit were not activated, there are still other methods to make things like LN and sidechain to happen, just much less efficient.

我仅代表我个人发表意见。矿工挖矿是为了图利 (这是应该的)。我们可以从ETH/ETC得到了解。他们尝试追求短期利益和长期利益最大化。我的担心是,在不同方案的看法方面,西方社区和中国社区好像有些脱节,/ /如果隔离见证没被激活,仍有其他方法实现闪电网络和侧链,只是效率更低罢了。
2016-12-15 11:34:42 Johnson_Lau: anyone should make their own decision by really looking at different proposals, and make sure any proposal they adopt are technically safe and won't harm the fundamental value of bitcoin. Miners also need to listen to the real investors of bitcoin: those people who are really buying bitcoin and storing value with bitcoin. At the end of the day, these people are the very important ones to make bitcoin valuable.

(回答这个问题和hellobitcoin的最后一个问题)任何人都应该通过比较不同的方案来做出自己的决定,以确保他们所接受的方案的技术安全,并且不会损害比特币的基础价值。矿工们也需要听听比特币实际投资者们的意见:因为是这些人正在实际购买比特币,并将价值存储在比特币中。在一天结束的时候, 是这些人使比特币更具有价值,他们至关重要。
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hellobitcoin 2016-12-9 11:25:24
你们跟矿工交流多吗? 会根据矿工意见进行调整吗 ? 你们觉得要怎么促进矿工、开发者之间的沟通和达成共识呢
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2016-12-9 11:28:26 BW.COM: CORE一向不太care矿工的意见。这点请大家理解,毕竟他们是做技术的,专注于技术。
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萌大大 2016-12-11 17:13:13
今天的meet up 现场。

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现场视频直播链接:http://h.huajiao.com/l/index?liv ... ebip=117.21.168.152
巴比特将带着大家的问题现场提问。

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2016-12-12 17:29:10 南海道回复bitsbetter : 哇,昨天我被人拍了下来,左边这个针织衫是我,激动!兴奋!第一次上镜!
bitsbetter | 来自手机版 显示全部楼层
2016-12-11 18:33:32 来自手机版bitsbetter: 进行中
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AMA时间:2016-12-11 14:00 - 2016-12-12 17:00 热度(2046) 讨论(34)
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